Dave Gutknecht chronicles 

Ed Felien

BY ED FELIEN

What follows is a discussion/debate between Dave Gutknecht and me about the Ukraine war. Dave was one of the first martyrs of the draft resistance movement in the 1970s in reaction to the war in Vietnam. He served two years in federal prison as a conscientious objector for refusing to be drafted. He is passionately anti-war. I am passionately anti-imperialist. We have been on the same side for more than half a century because the U.S. has been the principal imperialist aggressor for most of our lives.

Dave:
To the editor: “We are obviously living in different universes,” Editor Ed Felien told me. That’s because my political universe does not rely solely on the pro-war narratives in the mainstream: NYT and Washington Post, MSNBC and CNN, NPR and Politico, Atlantic and New Yorker. That media universe overlaps with mine to the extent you can read between the lines for propaganda, and also read elsewhere. I had sent comments on how Ukraine is losing badly and Russia is winning. Ed wanted more substantiation and suggested we wait until the October edition. But why? The slaughter continues. By October, I’ll be crying even more in the vein of “I told you so.”

Ed:
OK, we disagree. Get to the point.

Dave:
The summary in the August edition needs radical updating, since the counteroffensive is failing and now aims at best for a “stalemate.” This is now admitted by some of the above media outlets as well as many others. I’ll recommend a few sources, allowing for homework by anyone to find substantiation or contradiction of official claims. Just this week I found more interviews by informed U.S./European commenters that reference new reports in the NYT and Washington Post citing Pentagon and administration officials now admitting that Ukraine cannot win. Read on: Politico quotes federal officials to say that Gen. Milley “had a point” with his earlier suggestion of negotiations with Russia, which were roundly rejected. The report notes complete disappointment within the administration at the failed Ukraine counteroffensive. Another official said, “If we acknowledge that we’re not going to do this forever, then what are we going to do?” https://www.politico.com/newsletters/national-security-daily/2023/08/18/milley-had-a-point00111878

Ed:
You don’t prove this: “since the counteroffensive is failing and now aims at best for a ‘stalemate.’” I agree the Ukraine war is an escalating horror show. Now, Ukraine is sending drones into Russia. The horror has crossed borders. But you offer no convincing proof that Ukraine is losing and the counter-offensive is failing.

Dave:
The Aug. 18 NYT reports on casualties with much obfuscation but admits to at least a half million total on both sides. Its suggestion that casualties have been greater on the Russian side is typical but ridiculous, given Russian superiority in the air and artillery, the sources of huge numbers of casualties (see more links below): https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/18/us/politics/ukraine-russia-warcasualties.html?searchResultPosition=1 — the latter report, alluding to massive Ukrainian losses and failed frontline assaults, includes this disgusting statement: “American officials say they fear that Ukraine has become casualty averse…”

Ed:
Truth is the first casualty of war. Each side exaggerates the enemy’s casualties and minimizes their own. And yes, I too am “casualty averse.”

Dave:
Heinz Gartner, a professor of political science and chair of the International Institute for Peace in Vienna, has a series of interviews with public figures, including a discussion with Robert Hunter, U.S. ambassador to NATO during the 1990s, former NSA staff, and a Cold Warrior active in Washington establishment think tanks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX2i8Z1ns5g. Hunter says Ukraine will never be in NATO. Actually, Ukraine neutrality is the central issue in anticipation of this war dating back to the 1990s. Hunter says a divided Ukraine will never become a member of NATO. What he doesn’t say clearly is that Ukraine also will never recover its eastern territories, which are now part of the Russian Federation.

Ed:
You say, “Ukraine will never be in NATO” without citing any evidence in spite of assurances from everywhere that Ukraine will join NATO when there is no longer active conflict with Russia.

Dave:
Judge Andrew Napolitano frequently posts interviews with many different figures, including former State Department veteran Matthew Hoh: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgkoCbJxuM4.
Hoh, a moderate, says Ukraine’s military is threatened with collapse, which would be a disaster for all sides, and that the Ukraine government is a house of cards being maintained, for who knows how long, by the U.S.

Ed:
Do you have any concrete evidence for “Ukraine’s military is threatened with collapse, which would be a disaster for all sides, and that the Ukraine government is a house of cards being maintained, for who knows how long, by the U.S.” other than the opinion of Hoh?

Dave:
Napolitano (search “Judge Napolitano”) also interviews Ray McGovern, former high-level national intelligence officer; Dennis Johnson, former CIA official; and Scott Ritter, former Marine and U.N. weapons inspector. Col. Douglas MacGregor provides another military voice pleading that we recognize the disaster. They all explain how the promise of F-16 jet fighters won’t make a difference—these latest headlines reflect just another ploy prolonging the agony of Ukraine on behalf of the real winners, the military-industrial manufacturers.

Ed:
You say, “They all explain how the promise of F-16 jet fighters won’t make a difference”—why?  When you cite an opinion that is contrary to generally accepted opinion, don’t you think you have a responsibility to give some concrete evidence to support that opinion?
I agree that war is hell, and we should do what we can to end it. But we don’t want to achieve the ”peace in our times” of Neville Chamberlain’s Munich Agreement with Hitler that rewarded Hitler’s aggression and set the stage for World War II.